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	<title>Comments on: Perfect Play: Man Vs. Machine In Games</title>
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	<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/</link>
	<description>Personal Development for Polymaths</description>
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		<title>By: Hunter Nuttall</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-41492</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Nuttall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-41492</guid>
		<description>@ Doug, beginners often play Go on a 9 x 9 or 13 x 13 grid (odd numbers so there&#039;s a center). Computers have reached a strong amateur level on a 9 x 9 board. The problem is that the decision tree grows rapidly as the board gets bigger, so much that most people don&#039;t think constructing a decision tree is the best answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Doug, beginners often play Go on a 9 x 9 or 13 x 13 grid (odd numbers so there&#8217;s a center). Computers have reached a strong amateur level on a 9 x 9 board. The problem is that the decision tree grows rapidly as the board gets bigger, so much that most people don&#8217;t think constructing a decision tree is the best answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug B.</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-40913</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-40913</guid>
		<description>Have any computers been programmed to play Go on an 8x8 grid? That would provide a fairer comparison to chess. After all, a decision tree could be constructed for Go as well as for chess. They&#039;re both &quot;just&quot; board games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have any computers been programmed to play Go on an 8&#215;8 grid? That would provide a fairer comparison to chess. After all, a decision tree could be constructed for Go as well as for chess. They&#8217;re both &#8220;just&#8221; board games.</p>
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		<title>By: Mara Gold</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-38548</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara Gold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 01:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-38548</guid>
		<description>You asked - Will there always be a game, whether Go or something else, where the best humans can beat the best computers? 

I think Go will eventually be conquered by technological advances that boggle our minds today.  

I wonder - can we design a game that relies on intuitive leaps that can&#039;t be outplayed someday by a brute force computer?  

Great piece, lots to think about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You asked &#8211; Will there always be a game, whether Go or something else, where the best humans can beat the best computers? </p>
<p>I think Go will eventually be conquered by technological advances that boggle our minds today.  </p>
<p>I wonder &#8211; can we design a game that relies on intuitive leaps that can&#8217;t be outplayed someday by a brute force computer?  </p>
<p>Great piece, lots to think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter Nuttall</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-38067</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Nuttall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 05:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-38067</guid>
		<description>A very simple example of a non-draw game would be tic-tac-toe on a 2 x 2 grid, with the objective of getting two in a row. The first player would win every time (not that anyone would want to play this for very long). The first player has an advantage in many games, though it&#039;s usually not sufficient to force a win.

- In tic-tac-toe, the first player has an advantage, but nothing that the second player can&#039;t neutralize.

- In chess, the first player has a significant advantage, and the second player generally doesn&#039;t expect to win if the players are evenly matched. That&#039;s why the players alternate between black and white in a match.

- In Go, the first player has a significant advantage, and the second player is compensated with a certain number of points added to their score. Usually 4.5 - 7.5, though there&#039;s no consensus on what value would make the game balanced. 

Computers are great for handling certain tasks, and I&#039;m sure we&#039;ll have them implanted in us someday. They make life better, and will continue to do so. But I&#039;m also concerned about the day when they decide they don&#039;t need us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very simple example of a non-draw game would be tic-tac-toe on a 2 x 2 grid, with the objective of getting two in a row. The first player would win every time (not that anyone would want to play this for very long). The first player has an advantage in many games, though it&#8217;s usually not sufficient to force a win.</p>
<p>- In tic-tac-toe, the first player has an advantage, but nothing that the second player can&#8217;t neutralize.</p>
<p>- In chess, the first player has a significant advantage, and the second player generally doesn&#8217;t expect to win if the players are evenly matched. That&#8217;s why the players alternate between black and white in a match.</p>
<p>- In Go, the first player has a significant advantage, and the second player is compensated with a certain number of points added to their score. Usually 4.5 &#8211; 7.5, though there&#8217;s no consensus on what value would make the game balanced. </p>
<p>Computers are great for handling certain tasks, and I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ll have them implanted in us someday. They make life better, and will continue to do so. But I&#8217;m also concerned about the day when they decide they don&#8217;t need us.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad @ sentient money</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-38010</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad @ sentient money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-38010</guid>
		<description>@ Pace

You are correct.  In my head I was equating a draw game and a game where the first person always wins (or something similar) as the same thing.  Obviously I failed to state that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Pace</p>
<p>You are correct.  In my head I was equating a draw game and a game where the first person always wins (or something similar) as the same thing.  Obviously I failed to state that.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Wright</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-37998</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-37998</guid>
		<description>Wow, definitely one of the more interesting posts I&#039;ve read recently.

Well played :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, definitely one of the more interesting posts I&#8217;ve read recently.</p>
<p>Well played <img src='http://hunternuttall.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Pace Smith</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-37986</link>
		<dc:creator>Pace Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-37986</guid>
		<description>@Chad: Connect Four is a counterexample.  It has static rules and no randomness, yet it&#039;s a win for the first player.

@Hunter:

This post reminds me of the song &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.metrolyrics.com/kasparov-vs-deep-blue-lyrics-moxy-fruvous.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kasparov vs. Deep Blue&lt;/a&gt; by Moxy Früvous.  (warning, lots of pop-up ads (it&#039;s a lyrics site, you know how those are) and some off-color language.)

I&#039;m an artificial intelligence researcher by day (and superhero by night) so I&#039;ve thought a lot about this sort of thing.  As for games, my personal opinion is that I don&#039;t care.  If you&#039;re playing a game to have fun, then have fun, regardless of whether the game is solved and regardless of what computers can and can&#039;t do.

As to how this carries over to other types of problems, I think the trend of &quot;advanced chess&quot; is the way to go.  Just like having easy access to Google and Wikipedia can augment an intelligent person&#039;s ability to solve interesting problems, I think that as computers become able to solve simple common-sense reasoning problems, the most effective people will be those who delegate those simple problems to the computers and perform the high-level reasoning on their own.  In your words, do the strategy and delegate the tactics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chad: Connect Four is a counterexample.  It has static rules and no randomness, yet it&#8217;s a win for the first player.</p>
<p>@Hunter:</p>
<p>This post reminds me of the song <a href="http://www.metrolyrics.com/kasparov-vs-deep-blue-lyrics-moxy-fruvous.html" rel="nofollow">Kasparov vs. Deep Blue</a> by Moxy Früvous.  (warning, lots of pop-up ads (it&#8217;s a lyrics site, you know how those are) and some off-color language.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m an artificial intelligence researcher by day (and superhero by night) so I&#8217;ve thought a lot about this sort of thing.  As for games, my personal opinion is that I don&#8217;t care.  If you&#8217;re playing a game to have fun, then have fun, regardless of whether the game is solved and regardless of what computers can and can&#8217;t do.</p>
<p>As to how this carries over to other types of problems, I think the trend of &#8220;advanced chess&#8221; is the way to go.  Just like having easy access to Google and Wikipedia can augment an intelligent person&#8217;s ability to solve interesting problems, I think that as computers become able to solve simple common-sense reasoning problems, the most effective people will be those who delegate those simple problems to the computers and perform the high-level reasoning on their own.  In your words, do the strategy and delegate the tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Martine</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-37979</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Martine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-37979</guid>
		<description>Well, the computers aren&#039;t having any fun. And they&#039;re terrible conversationalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the computers aren&#8217;t having any fun. And they&#8217;re terrible conversationalists.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad @ sentient money</title>
		<link>http://hunternuttall.com/blog/2010/01/perfect-play/comment-page-1/#comment-37971</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad @ sentient money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hunternuttall.com/blog/?p=1837#comment-37971</guid>
		<description>I like this post.  I had always thought checkers was a draw game, but never really looked it up.

Go is probably a draw game to, but as you pointed out the calculations are so large it can&#039;t be done at this time.  After reading this I would think any game with static rules is a draw game.  Only a game with no rules and true randomness could actually be considered a non-draw game.  War being one example (yes, it&#039;s not a game in the spirit of games).  However, a sufficiently complex draw game like chess or Go would be worth playing against other humans and computers...unless it&#039;s chess against one of the best supercomputers.

I do like the idea of people and computers teaming up.  Actually, I have always thought it was inevitable humans would team with computers and at some point actually have computers permanently implanted.  Like your post says the computer could memorize stuff and do calculations freeing up the human for the strategy part of anything.

It would be a really powerful tool in research if ever researcher essentially knew every bit of information at all times, but was still able to make leaps of intuition.

We could actually teach people how to think in school instead of teaching them how to memorize.  Yes, I know they try to teach people how to think now, but most teachers just fall back on memorization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this post.  I had always thought checkers was a draw game, but never really looked it up.</p>
<p>Go is probably a draw game to, but as you pointed out the calculations are so large it can&#8217;t be done at this time.  After reading this I would think any game with static rules is a draw game.  Only a game with no rules and true randomness could actually be considered a non-draw game.  War being one example (yes, it&#8217;s not a game in the spirit of games).  However, a sufficiently complex draw game like chess or Go would be worth playing against other humans and computers&#8230;unless it&#8217;s chess against one of the best supercomputers.</p>
<p>I do like the idea of people and computers teaming up.  Actually, I have always thought it was inevitable humans would team with computers and at some point actually have computers permanently implanted.  Like your post says the computer could memorize stuff and do calculations freeing up the human for the strategy part of anything.</p>
<p>It would be a really powerful tool in research if ever researcher essentially knew every bit of information at all times, but was still able to make leaps of intuition.</p>
<p>We could actually teach people how to think in school instead of teaching them how to memorize.  Yes, I know they try to teach people how to think now, but most teachers just fall back on memorization.</p>
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